i don't have the words to properly situate this within the current discourse right now but you all should be aware that the fediverse is historically an anti-trans and anti-gay space also
when mastodon first started, activitypub didn't exist yet. the fediverse was a bunch of GNU Social instances communicating over the OStatus protocol. these instances were well-established, and they did not take kindly to the popularity of Mastodon and all the new users taking over their existing, quiet culture
the existing, quiet culture, by the way, was a bunch of channer shit and blatantly anti-gay and anti-trans memes. the instance we saw most often on the federated timeline in those days was shitposter.club, a place which virtually every respectable instance now has blocked. mastodon didn't really *have* blocks back then
@:u2764: revenant dyke :demi_sweat::Colorless_energy: That "existing culture" was from the very same year mastodon.social came online. The famous channer-culture and freezepeach instances came up only months before Mastodon's "Show HN" and the general meme that Mastodon was "Twitter without the Nazis". I don't think it's fair to pin that on GNU Social and the free software movement.
What is fair to pin on the project and the community is that they were unprepared for the influx and steeped in an individualist hacker culture where tolerance of intolerance was not considered a big problem and "just don't read it" was considered a solution. The software had no tools and the community had no roles for creating a safe environment.
Mastodon introduced proper moderation tools to Fedi, driven by the needs of queer denizens, no doubt about it.
This was at the height of the alt-right's first collision with Twitter moderation and later that year Milo/Nero would be permabanned from Twitter.
Robek's article about Fedi 2016 is whimsical, rambly, opinionated, maybe edgy, but accurate in terms of the timeline and the factual events described at "The Second Exodus":
@clacke this is a fair response; it probably wasn’t clear but my intention WASN’T to pin blame for this culture on the GNU Social software or OStatus protocol (which i actually generally respect) but more emphasize the fact that what we (or, some people) consider the “fediverse” today is a completely different set of technologies and instances compared to what it was in those days
i can say, subjectively, that the channer culture was established Enough to take issue with Mastodon and dominant (or talkative) Enough that they were most of what Mastodon seemed to be communicating with, but of course there WERE plenty of other, even older instances out there as well
the reason why i tend to write those very old instances off is because their “individualist hacker culture” mostly did not feel to me like a communal FEDIVERSE culture (but rather a bunch of individualist nodes which happened to talk to each other); this might be unfair but it
... show more
@clacke this is a fair response; it probably wasn’t clear but my intention WASN’T to pin blame for this culture on the GNU Social software or OStatus protocol (which i actually generally respect) but more emphasize the fact that what we (or, some people) consider the “fediverse” today is a completely different set of technologies and instances compared to what it was in those days
i can say, subjectively, that the channer culture was established Enough to take issue with Mastodon and dominant (or talkative) Enough that they were most of what Mastodon seemed to be communicating with, but of course there WERE plenty of other, even older instances out there as well
the reason why i tend to write those very old instances off is because their “individualist hacker culture” mostly did not feel to me like a communal FEDIVERSE culture (but rather a bunch of individualist nodes which happened to talk to each other); this might be unfair but it seemed to me like the channer and later Mastodon instances had a sense of federated community which the predecessors did not (this may or may not be a good thing, depending on your outlook)
"My" Fediverse community was a few dozen people who had been there mostly since year one, people who to some degree were there for Free Software discourse, who interacted a lot across identi.ca, quitter.se, fragdev, loadaverage and their own small instances.
There were thousands of people who probably didn't follow this circle and maybe didn't venture outside whatever server they happened to be on. The quitter.es crowd come to mind, another Twitter emigration that came and mostly went when a particular celebrity was banned and later reinstated on Twitter.
The two 2016 migrations were more coherent and more persistent and forever changed what Fedi is.
I'm a white cishet male free software nerd, so a lot of this evolution has been outside my bubble and under my radar and I've only seen the tip of the iceberg. It's good to have an eye-opener.
@Jon Anything I write here is CC-by-SA, but for the purpose of this article you have my permission to redistribute my quotes under whatever terms you prefer.
You have my express permission to mention me as a source, refer to my fedi username and link to my posts.
@clacke thanks! and Everything I wite on Nexus of Privacy is CC NC-BY-SA as well (and now that I think of it I'll put that explicitly at the bottom of the post too)
> Prodromou is generally credited for coining the term "fediverse,"
We have been discussing this recently and two years ago and I think nobody is saying Prodromou came up with the term, it was definitely the users.
Most likely it was Marjolein Katsma in 2013, she was using the term for months before anyone else did. Before then it was more often then "identiverse", or admins and users of servers other than identi.ca itself were in a group called "feds".
People have said they saw the term already in 2011 but we haven't been able to find records.
:compy: Lady, EVOLVED :awoo:
in reply to :compy: Lady, EVOLVED :awoo: • • •when mastodon first started, activitypub didn't exist yet. the fediverse was a bunch of GNU Social instances communicating over the OStatus protocol. these instances were well-established, and they did not take kindly to the popularity of Mastodon and all the new users taking over their existing, quiet culture
the existing, quiet culture, by the way, was a bunch of channer shit and blatantly anti-gay and anti-trans memes. the instance we saw most often on the federated timeline in those days was shitposter.club, a place which virtually every respectable instance now has blocked. mastodon didn't really *have* blocks back then
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
in reply to :compy: Lady, EVOLVED :awoo: • •@:u2764: revenant dyke :demi_sweat::Colorless_energy: That "existing culture" was from the very same year mastodon.social came online. The famous channer-culture and freezepeach instances came up only months before Mastodon's "Show HN" and the general meme that Mastodon was "Twitter without the Nazis". I don't think it's fair to pin that on GNU Social and the free software movement.
What is fair to pin on the project and the community is that they were unprepared for the influx and steeped in an individualist hacker culture where tolerance of intolerance was not considered a big problem and "just don't read it" was considered a solution. The software had no tools and the community had no roles for creating a safe environment.
Mastodon introduced proper moderation tools to Fedi, driven by the needs of queer denizens, no doubt about it.
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 • •This was at the height of the alt-right's first collision with Twitter moderation and later that year Milo/Nero would be permabanned from Twitter.
Robek's article about Fedi 2016 is whimsical, rambly, opinionated, maybe edgy, but accurate in terms of the timeline and the factual events described at "The Second Exodus":
robekworld.com/what-is-gnu-soc…
:compy: Lady, EVOLVED :awoo:
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 • • •@clacke this is a fair response; it probably wasn’t clear but my intention WASN’T to pin blame for this culture on the GNU Social software or OStatus protocol (which i actually generally respect) but more emphasize the fact that what we (or, some people) consider the “fediverse” today is a completely different set of technologies and instances compared to what it was in those days
i can say, subjectively, that the channer culture was established Enough to take issue with Mastodon and dominant (or talkative) Enough that they were most of what Mastodon seemed to be communicating with, but of course there WERE plenty of other, even older instances out there as well
the reason why i tend to write those very old instances off is because their “individualist hacker culture” mostly did not feel to me like a communal FEDIVERSE culture (but rather a bunch of individualist nodes which happened to talk to each other); this might be unfair but it
... show more@clacke this is a fair response; it probably wasn’t clear but my intention WASN’T to pin blame for this culture on the GNU Social software or OStatus protocol (which i actually generally respect) but more emphasize the fact that what we (or, some people) consider the “fediverse” today is a completely different set of technologies and instances compared to what it was in those days
i can say, subjectively, that the channer culture was established Enough to take issue with Mastodon and dominant (or talkative) Enough that they were most of what Mastodon seemed to be communicating with, but of course there WERE plenty of other, even older instances out there as well
the reason why i tend to write those very old instances off is because their “individualist hacker culture” mostly did not feel to me like a communal FEDIVERSE culture (but rather a bunch of individualist nodes which happened to talk to each other); this might be unfair but it seemed to me like the channer and later Mastodon instances had a sense of federated community which the predecessors did not (this may or may not be a good thing, depending on your outlook)
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 likes this.
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
in reply to :compy: Lady, EVOLVED :awoo: • •@:u2764: revenant dyke :demi_sweat::Colorless_energy: No, that's all fair and I agree with you.
"My" Fediverse community was a few dozen people who had been there mostly since year one, people who to some degree were there for Free Software discourse, who interacted a lot across identi.ca, quitter.se, fragdev, loadaverage and their own small instances.
There were thousands of people who probably didn't follow this circle and maybe didn't venture outside whatever server they happened to be on. The quitter.es crowd come to mind, another Twitter emigration that came and mostly went when a particular celebrity was banned and later reinstated on Twitter.
The two 2016 migrations were more coherent and more persistent and forever changed what Fedi is.
Jon
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 • • •@clacke this is a great discussion
Can I quote a couple of things from it in "Mastodon: a partial history"?
- Lady's point about the anti-gay and anti-trans memes, and shitposter.club
- Claes' point about the timing of the channer-culture and freezepeach instances, the culture, and the lack of tools and roles?
Here's the current draft, I'm in the midst of reworking the 2016 discussions to have more context on the fediverse.
privacy.thenexus.today/mastodo…
:compy: Lady, EVOLVED :awoo:
in reply to Jon • • •clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
in reply to Jon • •@Jon @:u2764: revenant dyke :demi_sweat::Colorless_energy: Wow, this was a really interesting read. Thank you for doing this.
I'm a white cishet male free software nerd, so a lot of this evolution has been outside my bubble and under my radar and I've only seen the tip of the iceberg. It's good to have an eye-opener.
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
in reply to Jon • •@Jon Anything I write here is CC-by-SA, but for the purpose of this article you have my permission to redistribute my quotes under whatever terms you prefer.
You have my express permission to mention me as a source, refer to my fedi username and link to my posts.
Jon
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 • • •@clacke thanks! and Everything I wite on Nexus of Privacy is CC NC-BY-SA as well (and now that I think of it I'll put that explicitly at the bottom of the post too)
And, glad it was so interesting!
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 likes this.
clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
in reply to Jon • •Jon
in reply to Jon • • •Mastodon: a partial history (DRAFT)
Jon (The Nexus Of Privacy)clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
in reply to Jon • •@Jon @:u2764: revenant dyke :demi_sweat::Colorless_energy: Great! "a Claes unto himself" sounds confusing in running text, probably easier to just call me clacke 😃
> Prodromou is generally credited for coining the term "fediverse,"
We have been discussing this recently and two years ago and I think nobody is saying Prodromou came up with the term, it was definitely the users.
Most likely it was Marjolein Katsma in 2013, she was using the term for months before anyone else did. Before then it was more often then "identiverse", or admins and users of servers other than identi.ca itself were in a group called "feds".
People have said they saw the term already in 2011 but we haven't been able to find records.
Jon
in reply to clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 • • •clacke: inhibited exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 likes this.