Hot take: I think the government should support and donate to Mozilla. Firefox could be the people's browser. Free. Open source. Available to all. The government could mandate that all websites built for the government must work with Firefox. Ideally, Mozilla could stop taking Google money and stop trying to figure out how to serve us ads in order to raise funds. Is anyone advocating for such an idea?

@obsolete29 @ChrisWere
Which government?
How would citizens of other countires feel about a state-sponsored browser?
Do Mozilla want to be reliant on funding which may change depending on headlines and elections?

@Edent @obsolete29 I believe Tor has received some state funding, as had Matrix and other FOSS projects. It's not as uncommon as it sounds.

I'd probably punt for a gov to fork the engine, or start one from scratch.

@ChrisWere @Edent @obsolete29 For at least a decade Tor was funded by the US state department. The purpose was so that the US state could continue its clandestine operations without key actors being comically revealed. In the olden days it used to be "ah yes, I see that someone from the state department has logged on to leave aggravating reply spam on my blog".

@icedquinn @ChrisWere @Edent @obsolete29 I almost read that as "tor was developed in one day", but that's JavaScript.

Hi Mike,

You might be interested in a #UBI. UBIs mean that everyone gets a basic starter wage and then they do jobs to get more.

A UBI that goes up slightly with age will help all volunteers of a country, not just Mozilla.

It will also result in fewer people accepting abusive work at dot-cons.
@icedquinn @obsolete29 @ChrisWere @Edent

@dsfgs @RobinWils @icedquinn @obsolete29 @ChrisWere @Edent

> It will also result in fewer people accepting abusive work at dot-cons.

that remains to be seen

> A UBI that goes up slightly with age will help all volunteers of a country, not just Mozilla.

Not necessarily

it extends the amount of tax burden, and increases demand for labour, which may decrease the amount of volunteers
@jeffcliff @dsfgs @ChrisWere @Edent @RobinWils @obsolete29 it's supposed to basically be removing bankers as the sole arbiters of who gets to back businesses and replaces it with populism.

controlled amount of inflation directly infused in to the populace instead of inflation given to financial engineers.
@jeffcliff there have been thinkers trying to work these out (SoCred by C. H. Douglas, Heinlein later toyed with libertarian versions of it in For Us The Living), there were also negative income taxes (this is the one i prefer).

UBI is relatively new and most people punting it seem to just be advertising it as free money.

the origins of UBI it's a complete restructuring of the economy

@ChrisWere @Edent @RobinWils @dsfgs @obsolete29
@icedquinn @ChrisWere @Edent @RobinWils @dsfgs @obsolete29 and I'm one of the few people who's actually lived in an area with something close to UBI going on

ok how about this: a voluntary NGO charity
#UBI program. skip the whole consensus issue and just launch the thing. focus on lifting marginalized folks. small staff, mostly automated processes. keep the wealth redistribution cooperative efficient. make smart investments, help build strong cooperative communities.

people say charity should be the thing helping people, so let's do a charity. a charity that takes donations and gives people in need UBI. doesn't have to be a complicated political issue or government agency at the wheel. just people helping people.

@xjix @icedquinn @ChrisWere @dsfgs @obsolete29 @RobinWils @Edent i think this is what the puma currency collective is

they are on ripple/villages

you could ask them how it's going

A person who has dedicated a lot of attention to studying #UBI, identified that ppl on a UBI work more not less. Feel free to look him up, though. His name is #GuyStanding of the #BienNetwork (?) iwrc.

He stresses quite fervently that ppl work more, and they will work in fields that they feel they are best suited to.

@icedquinn @ChrisWere @jeffcliff @obsolete29 @RobinWils @Edent

i reckon it should be possible to have a positive feedback loop of people benefiting from cooperative
#UBI who seek an economic position to contribute to UBI so that other people can benefit from and later expand the program. hard to boot up perhaps, but if we can't develop an attitude of caring for one another to start with as motivation we might be lost anyway.

can't wait to get murked for saying "love each other" XD

@xjix @ChrisWere @jeffcliff @dsfgs @obsolete29 @RobinWils @Edent

people do more work when its something they care about or they have something to gain out of it yes. some of the ubi experiments in the small scale show that homeless / extreme poor actually don't play videogames like everyone says and instead bought stuff like new shoes,

i posted elsewhere to the effect of before trying to put NEETs in jobs maybe figure out why they're broken to begin with.

though there are bottom feeders in a lot of existing programs (pool talked about the people who just walk food bank circuits and even when they try to make them do therapy programs they just factor in the waiting penance as part of getting free food.) so. dunno.

nothing wrong with people who can't contribute for whatever reasons. it does take resources to support them, but i don't know that its correct to say that people must earn their daily bread. maybe they will think of something else to do once they've been fed for a while.

@xjix @ChrisWere @jeffcliff @dsfgs @obsolete29 @RobinWils @Edent

i dunno. in my experience people are perfectly happy with treating you like shit for not waging hard enough.

women are definitely not selecting for it either.
@xjix @icedquinn @ChrisWere @dsfgs @obsolete29 @RobinWils @Edent

> maybe they will think of something else to do once they've been fed for a while.

yeah, cocaine

The problem is - you guys are going to have to live through this experiment, since this is the sort of thing that sounds *really* good coming in. I wish you luck.
@xjix @icedquinn @ChrisWere @dsfgs @obsolete29 @RobinWils @Edent because as someone who gives around ~100% of my income to income taxes, I don't want to pay for other people's cocaine addictions with my labour
@xjix @ChrisWere @Edent @RobinWils @dsfgs @icedquinn @obsolete29 actually there's more to it than that but I'm not getting into it on a public forum

look kid i've done a lot of drugs in my life. sometimes for fun, sometimes as an escape. if your life is suffering, it seems like a better alternative to be fucked up all the time. you can't fix that by being hard on these people. life being hard on them is why they can't break free from addiction. its a medical and mental health issue you fucking puritan. didn't jesus command you to love your neighbor?

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@jeffcliff @xjix @ChrisWere @Edent @RobinWils @dsfgs @icedquinn @obsolete29

normal people by common sense and observation don't do cocaine when put in that situation, they play playstation, go to football matches, take up scrapbooking and generally do whatever normal people do when they have resources

people who immediately use surplus resources for hard drugs are not normal. if you think otherwise then you are abnormal
@jeffcliff @ChrisWere @Edent @RobinWils @dsfgs @icedquinn @obsolete29 @xjix are you absolutely certain that is not a situation where people know they have resources but also know they might not have them tomorrow and so spend them in a "drink and be merry for tomorrow we are dead" way?
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@xjix @icedquinn @ChrisWere @dsfgs @obsolete29 @RobinWils @Edent

> but if we can't develop an attitude of caring for one another to start with as motivation we might be lost anyway.

That definitely was not an outcome

The thing about pre-UBI systems is they don't need this, you can trade with people who you hate because you have to pay your loan payments.

hey that's great, but i wouldn't exactly call current year a success. more like, what we have to deal with. yeah it works whatever. i want humanity to be better than that, sa sa?

@dsfgs @xjix @icedquinn @ChrisWere @obsolete29 @RobinWils @Edent

And i'll stress equally fervently that what people feel are the field they are best suited for is orthogonal to anything useful

I saw UBI live in action, I lived through it - this isn't some theoretical thing for me.

@ChrisWere @Edent @obsolete29 failing that, I'd settle for a browser choice window on Windows and Android.

The EU did it for Windows 7, so it's not impractical:

@obsolete29 governments have to be very careful about giving preferential treatment to one business over another. As much as I support the open Web I don't think it would work :(

Or even better: A new and 100% non profit independent publicly founded browser! I guess that could be a Firefox fork?
I wish EU would take initiative for that, rather than just doing firefighting against Google 🙏

And AFAIK Firefox is maintained by Mozilla Corp (and not Mozilla Foundation), which is for-profit. But correct me if I'm wrong please 😅

@sigsegv @obsolete29 How about funding those EU companies who already have people with the skills to improve the browsers? Without existing people, EU funding would otherwise be dead in the water.


@obsolete29 Very bad idea. The government (any) shouldn't be in internet business. Plus Mozilla has enough money to make the best browser (they used to have), but they have no idea what to do. It's not about the money. They sit too much on their but and did nothing, just like Microsoft did when they were on top with IE6.

@obsolete29 only so long as they have no influence over the project


It seems that chrome has better standards-support than firefox [1]. In my opinion, that's a pretty good excuse to develop for chrome.

Also, those are two good ways for Mozilla to stop icky things on the web. They're also two good ways to limit Mozilla's funding. They already cut 250 people, because of how Covid affected their revenue [2]. As much as I hate to say it, money makes the world go round.


@obsolete29 Cold take: It shouldn't take as much effort to continually maintain a web browser as it takes Mozilla, Apple, & Google. How about redesigning these specs to be more modular, catering less to centralized computing, so that a largely uncoordinated mob of developers can more readily reimplement it's features without the need for a Mozilla?

@alcinnz @obsolete29 How to do that without going into a rewrite? ⇒ is there path towards more modularization with little released steps on the way?

How to get Firefox and Chrome to follow?

And how to avoid breaking the web in the process?

@alcinnz @obsolete29 How about instead of either/or we have both/and? Meaning I think Firefox's (near) feature parity with the web we're stuck with now gives instant value and justification for big funding. But at the same time allocating funds to specs redesign and splitting the codebase to allow for alternative implementations would pave way for the future.

@alcinnz @obsolete29 A losing battle as long as the vast majority of people are fine using Chrome, Google, and GMail. And the vast majority of Safari users only use it because Apple doesn't allow other browsers on iPhones. Do they even count people using the Chrome wrapper on iPhone as Chrome users?

The Web is dead. Google killed it. Time to start over.

@alcinnz @obsolete29 Actually, Microsoft killed it. Google just stole its corpse.

@freakazoid @obsolete29 Question is: What do we replace the web with?

I don't think there should be any one answer, but mine is that I'm perfectly happy (minor tweaks) with keeping HTML, CSS, and to a lesser extent HTTP. They seem simple enough to implement & maintain, and there's a lot of great writing already online which compatible with them!

But yes, hard to push for mainstream adoption of a browser that can't open Facebook. Probably for the best, as you said.

@obsolete29 I'd prefer to limit the influence of the US government on Internet content and development. Blind donations, maybe, but those are hard to implement. I mean, what if also ponies up but wants to ensure that secure key escrow is built in?

We're not in a perfect world now, but US government control, overt or tacit, would make it worse.

@obsolete29 Ideally the gov would only use FOSS software.

Anyway, the Europeans might be doing something like that.

@obsolete29 I've been meaning to send Mozilla money so I just did thanks to your toot. Thanks! 🤘

Aaron Swartz - Wikipedia

Aaron Hillel Swartz (November 8, 1986 – January 11, 2013) was an American computer programmer, entrepreneur, writer, political organizer, and Internet hacktivist. He was involved in the development of the web feed format RSS,[3] the Markdown publishing format,[4] the organization Creative Commons,[5] and the website framework,[6] and join...

For the record: I would rather see no government involved.
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